Thursday, July 23, 2015

Unconvincing Apologetics 1

This is continuing, if it continues at all, from this conversation with Steve from the UK over on Bruce Gerencser's blog.

Here's the initial assertion:
Given that most atheists are intelligent beings, you will have an eye on the times in which we live. So how do you square the fact that Revelation – a scholarly accepted dateable document (https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written) contains prophecy written more than 1900 years ago that is coming true before our eyes today? Just Google Verichip and then read Revelation where it says man can neither buy nor sell lest he receive the mark in his right hand or forehead. As an atheist, how do you explain that degree of accuracy in an -allegedly ‘uninspired’ text?
My response:
As far as the Book of Revelation goes… well, let me take a moment to consider how the Book of Revelation is relevant to present-day events.

Revelation1:4
“John to manifold churches which are in western Europe and North and South America, which lands are currently unknown to you: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;”

And here, again, in Revelation 1:10-11
“I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in the United States; unto the United Kingdom, and unto Mexico, and unto Canada, and unto Brazil, and unto Argentina, and unto Puerto Rico, and unto all the readers of Bruce Gerencser’s blog.”

Look, at the risk of running this particular point into the ground… even if Verichip was really a thing[1], to tie it to Revelation you have to start with the highly dubious assumption that the Book of Revelation was A) secretly intended as a message for modern Christians, rather than the people to whom it was explicitly addressed, and B) a prediction of far-future events, rather than a coded message to Christians living in areas hostile to Christianity.

Yes, I remember a goodly number of Christians freaking out about Verichip, and about various other signs that we were clearly living in the End Times — Right now! The world could end tomorrow! Or even TODAY!!! — forty years ago, and I know it’s been going on for centuries longer than that. And every bit of it was supported by comparison to scripture. So what I’m looking at is a text that just about anybody seems to be able to fit to the events of their time, which doesn’t say all that much for its degree of accuracy. Flexibility, maybe, but not accuracy.

[1] “VeriChip… was the only Food and Drug Administration (FDA)-approved human-implantable microchip. It was marketed by PositiveID, a subsidiary of Applied Digital Solutions, and it received United States FDA approval in 2004. Its manufacture and marketing were discontinued in 2010.” From Wikipedia; emphasis mine.
Steve from the UK replied:
Michael, if the cashless society arrives and Denmark is already well on the way, will you accept your identification/goods payment chip in your right hand or forehead if that time comes?
I answered:
Who cares? Why should I be even vaguely concerned about that?

You posited that Verichip was the “mark of the beast” written about in the book of Revelation, and cited this as proof of the supernatural accuracy of the Bible. I pointed out that verichip is a discontinued product, and Revelation was most likely never intended as a chronicle of future — or even modern — history, making that an exceedingly weak example of accuracy. You then respond that Denmark — Denmark! — is well on the way to becoming a cashless society, as if that were some clear indicator of the impeccable accuracy of the Bible.[1] Even if we had somehow established that the Book of Revelation was in any way relevant to the economic activities of modern Denmark and/or any modern nation (and we haven’t), moving to a cashless society is still a far cry from implementing anything like the “mark of the beast”, so it’s still a weak and highly dubious example of The Accuracy Of Biblical Prophecy(tm).

But that does bring me to another point: even if Revelation is a prophecy in the sense that you think it’s a prophecy, it’s self-defeating. At least here in America, the Mark of the Beast would be impossible to implement. Why? Because any time something that might even sort of vaguely resemble something like the “mark of the beast” comes along, huge numbers of Christians start freaking out about it. The prophecy is inherently self-defeating; the very existence of such a prophecy prevents it from coming true.

So, if the cashless society arrives, will I accept my identification/goods payment chip in my right hand or forehead? No, I’ll pay with a credit card like everybody else. Sheesh.

[1] Actually, now that I look again, that might be possible. Revelation 13:16-17 does say, “And he causeth all in Denmark, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” Spooky.
So that's where we're at. The short answer to the original question is that I don't see the Book of Revelation coming true before our eyes; all I see is strained connections based on vague resemblances between modern events and an ancient bit of extremely complex visual metaphor. And frankly, I'm having a hard time taking that seriously.

16 comments:

  1. I brought my seat cushion and popcorn ... hopefully it's not "rained out" :D

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  2. Meh. We'll see. I'm good either way.

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    1. But that said... Denmark, man. Denmark.

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    2. Isn't that where the "Chicken Little" story originates? How prophetic THAT was :P

      Denmark ... Whoa!

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  3. Michael types:
    But that does bring me to another point: even if Revelation is a prophecy in the sense that you think it’s a prophecy, it’s self-defeating. At least here in America, the Mark of the Beast would be impossible to implement. Why? Because any time something that might even sort of vaguely resemble something like the “mark of the beast” comes along, huge numbers of Christians start freaking out about it. The prophecy is inherently self-defeating; the very existence of such a prophecy prevents it from coming true.

    Steve 'Cletus from the backwoods' (for that is the general consensus) replies: either your understanding of how the real world works is mind-bogglingly limited: or you are refusing to acknowledge the endless raft of societal controls being implemented in your country. It can't be the former because you are intelligent. So, using Occams reasoning, it can only be the latter, or do you have a third option? Actually though, the second option makes most sense and that shouldn't really come as any surprise because refusal to acknowledge what is before the eyes is a pretty good way of describing the mindset of atheism. You're telling me Michael that you can't see how easy it will soon be for a dictatorial leadership to force you, yes YOU, King of all all of your blog Michael, to receive a chip in your right hand or forehead? Don't play games with yourself on this one. Look at your airport, train and general security arrangements in the US right now. You can't move without it being registered somewhere. All it needs is another manufactured crisis in the world somewhere to have an edit from on high come down to have a single chip that contains all your details (and implemented whilst everybody sings, won't all be so easy now) and guys like you will be flocking to have continued access to your finances.

    And so, because you do not have the Holy Spirit within you warning you not to take this mark, you will accept it. Those who don't accept the mark and who refuse to acknowledge this beast system because Revelation warns them otherwise, they will immediately be identifiable, marginalised, forced to take the mark and if they refuse, many will be killed. Your eyes rolling right now at simple Cletus from the backwoods now Michael? My bet is they are. But do yourself a favour. Just look at recent history and see how many times evil men and women have killed those 'below' them in their masses because they refused to bow the knee. But then you can't do that in real earnestness can you, you can't look into these possible scenarios with any real,seriousness, because to do so would force you to consider that what I am saying might have a thread of truth and would reveal the paucity of your own philosophical/theological position on this one. http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-31042477

    Did you watch the video Michael? The one that Cletus just. Made up in his mind because he's a mad bible believing dumbass from the backwoods? Go on Michael, and any of your readers, dare to sit down and think rationally for just one minute about where your country is headed, where all of us are headed in fact, the UK is no different. You will remember this exchange when that time comes. The impinging societal controls that are being rushed through state legislature like never before is one argument you cannot dismiss, undo or trivialise away. You do so at the expense of your intellectual credibility.

    Revelation13v: 16-17 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

    That has never made sense until right now. So, in all seriousness Michael, if the only means of getting access to your finances and being able to buy or sell, was to accept that chip in your right hand or forehead, would you take the mark?

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  4. To the tune of 'won't it all be so easy now' correcting typo above'.

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  5. "...Either your understanding of how the real world works is mind-bogglingly limited: or you are refusing to acknowledge the endless raft of societal controls being implemented in your country."

    Neither, actually. I'm well aware of the increasingly intrusive uses of data-gathering technology by both government and corporate entities. I just don't see them as being even remotely connected to the book of Revelation. What you keep trying to characterize as a clear and unmistakable foretelling of modern events in a book written 1900 years ago... I find neither clear, unmistakable, nor convincing. Vague resemblance? Sure. Precise accounting? Not so much. Clearly of supernatural origin? No.

    "Just look at recent history and see how many times evil men and women have killed those 'below' them in their masses because they refused to bow the knee."

    Recent history? Why just recent history? This sort of thing has been going on for approximately as long as there have been people. Which was my earlier point: the entire book of Revelation could just as easily (and much more believably) be read as a description of Imperial Rome.

    "Did you watch the video Michael?"

    No, it'll be a few hours before I'm in a position where I can do that. But I will. I doubt it'll change my answers, but I'll dare to take a look.

    "Revelation13v: 16-17 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

    That has never made sense until right now."


    Wait, what? Nonsense. You could implement a system that matches that description -- and, actually, matches it rather better than Verichip would -- using nothing more complicated than tattoos. And tattoos, as a technology, have been available for at least five thousand years.

    And are you seriously suggesting that that passage wouldn't have made sense to the people in the seven churches it was addressed to?

    So, again: you see prophecy; I see allegory. You see something unmistakably and exclusively relevant to modern Christians; I see visual imagery flexible enough that people have thought it was exclusively addressing the events of their own times for centuries. You see clear proof of divine origin; I see an argument that is really reaching to make its connections.

    Yes, increasing surveillance, record-keeping, and intrusive security apparatus are worrisome. There are some real problems there, and the potential for more and greater problems. I'm not dismissing that. I'm merely pointing out that none of that constitutes proof that the Bible is in any way supernatural in its origin or its nature.

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  6. Trust me when I say - Americans don't need the "holy spirit" in them to tell them to reject such an invasion of privacy and personal liberty.

    That said, you're really reaching with the possibilities of enforced acceptance of a chip implanted in everyone's body from a news story about a company that is offering employees to voluntarily accept a chip, 700 people have the choice, as in, NOT required for employment, versus your outlandish extrapolation of global subjugation by the "new world order" of 7 billion people or ... what? FEMA camps?

    Is it "possible"? Sure, just like it's "possible" that aliens live among us and the government(s) are hiding them, or that GW Bush ordered the attack on the World Trade Center (I personally can't buy this as a possibility) - look - ANYTHING is "possible", but with many things, that possibility is SO remote as to render it impossible in practical terms. I agree with you that we should all be wary of technological advancements and their intended and unintended consequences. Seriously, if any government attempted to enforce such a program, the backlash, across the board, would be so quick and violent as to threaten the very existence of the enforcing government - people would be cutting these things out faster than they could be inserted.

    You say that it "never made sense until now" but it has been applied to many other things in the past ans Michael has pointed out ... this one is no different with the exception of it hasn't played out to it's logical conclusion yet to get cast on the trash heap of other "signs of the revelation" that, well, just were NOT.

    Quite frankly, I am WAY more concerned with the willful rejection of Climate science and green/renewable energy technologies in favor of depleting and destroying our planet ... all the implanted chips in the world won't fix these issues and will do nothing but mark the locations of the bodies of those killed by sea level rises and pollution.

    Let's look at the "revelation" that supposedly makes so much sense "now" ... First, Who is "He"? Now I "get" that you'll define "He" as the antichrist or some such derivative ... but I mean, who is THE human being that is referred to when the revelation says "HE" tell us his name please ... Is it Barack Obama? Assad? Putin? Who is "He"? We need to know because it is this "he" that is going to implement this "social program". If you cannot identify "he" then you cannot KNOW that the program launch is "imminent".

    Why, if it's SO obvious that it will be this "chip" did the revelation not just say "receive a CHIP" instead of "receive a mark"? ... it would have been equal parts cryptic and prophetic, never mind that it clearly states ON, not IN the person ... why is that? Sure would seem to "fit" better if it said "IN the right hand or IN the forehead" don't you think?

    The "mark" (which you claim is a chip) which will be received on (not IN) the hand or forehead (no story for that placement) ... this mark is CLEARLY proclaimed to be "the name of the beast or the number of his name" ... this alludes to it being a universally distinguishing "mark" of "HE"/"HIM" (the , as yet unidentified, social program director/dictator) ... NOT an INDIVIDUAL identification which would be different for everyone (which is what the chip/mark in your story is for).

    Continued...

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    1. Continued from above ...

      Look, I appreciate the cautionary tale that says don't blindly follow, don't surrender yourself etc. But you haven't made even a flimsy case for a direct connection between your "revelation" and this news story you offer as evidence ... and we NEED evidence. You will see the word evidence a lot in discussions with atheists and skeptics - it's a recurring theme ... just like we'd be skeptical of allowing someone to inject a chip into our bodies, we're skeptical that your proclamation of the revelation coming to pass is nigh ... where's the evidence?

      And still ... none of it is evidence that a god exists - much less YOUR very specific god ... only that, if remotely true, someone guessed the future ... but then many winning gamblers have done that, now, haven't they?

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  7. Steve 'Cletus from the backwoods' is engaging in classic pareidolia: X vaguely resembles Y if one squints at it just so therefore X is Y. He has a lot more work to do to demonstrate that the 'chip' that he's talking about is *precisely* the same as Revelation's 'mark' before he ought to expect anyone else to take him seriously. A good start would be with explaining why Revelation ought to be taken seriously itself.

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  8. All right, I have watched the video. I also read the article. And, unsurprisingly, I remain underwhelmed by the resemblance between this technology and those two lines from the book of Revelation. It's an RFID chip, for pity's sake. The water meter on my house has one of those. The Skylanders figures have them. Once again, there are legitimate security concerns associated with using RFID chips (in any form, subdermal or not) for identification; and once again, the resemblance to Revelation is vague at best. The line was "no man may buy or sell", not "no man may open office doors or work the photocopier".

    That's not to say we couldn't get there. That's me pointing out that you're trying to prove the predictive accuracy of the entire book of Revelation based on a close resemblance between two lines out of the entire book, and events that haven't happened yet. Moreover, the only reason that you're sure these events are going to happen is because you think they're predicted in the book of Revelation. You aren't proving the predictive accuracy of the Bible; you're starting from it, as if it were a given.

    Maybe the book of Revelation is actually a prediction of future events. Maybe subdermal chips and other, interlocking technologies will become the Mark of the Beast referred to in Revelation 13:16-17. Maybe the predictive accuracy of book or Revelation will demonstrate the supernatural origins of the Bible. Maybe, someday. But right now, Revelation looks like a book addressed to a particular subset of the early church, and not to modern-day Christians at all; the events described there are described in such intensely coded and allegorical language that it's been possible for people -- sincere people, faithful people -- to apply them to their own sets of current events for literally centuries; the two lines describing the Mark of the Beast, which you've chosen to single out for their undeniable accuracy, could easily refer to quite a number of other technologies and/or means of social control, some of which fit the description better than the particular technology you're focused on; and, in any event, that technology isn't being used -- isn't even close to being used -- in the way that those two lines describe it being used.

    We asked for a proof. You've offered nothing but a string of suppositions.

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  9. I love that you're doing this. For the record, I'll totally accept the Beast-chip if it means I get 5% off purchases at Target.

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    1. I don't know, 10% would be my number! ;)

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  10. Are folks interested in me continuing my position on Revelation 13 and us all being forced in the vnf to accept the mark?
    Steve - a Christian from the UK aka 'Cletus from the backwoods' Btw, did you know the toothbrush was invented in my home town? Anywhere else and it would have been called a teethbrush.

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    1. Count me in as down to hear your rebuttal/evidence.

      FYI - I hope my comment did not come off as condescending - it certainly was not my intent - welcome home from vacation, Steve :)

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  11. Your call, Steve. I have no problem with you continuing, but I'm having trouble imagining what you might add that would make this particular argument any more convincing.

    For whatever it's worth, I don't think you're stupid, un(der)educated, or unsophisticated. I just think you're asserting a conclusion that isn't actually supported by the evidence you've offered.

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