tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4446682073857250843.post2925226041242213974..comments2024-03-27T23:42:36.619-05:00Comments on Mock Ramblings: Friendly Evangelism: Promoting Christianity to UnbelieversMichael Mockhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06233321050691782148noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4446682073857250843.post-75761242602382898342014-05-04T21:02:37.032-05:002014-05-04T21:02:37.032-05:00Oh, hey! Welcome! No, I really don't have a sp...Oh, hey! Welcome! No, I really don't have a spot to recommend. I picked up a certain amount while posting on the message boards over at www.snopes.com a few years back, and some more over in the comments at Slacktivist (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist), but it mainly seems to be a matter of having a well-moderated forum where the moderators are primarily focused on helping people understand each other (but still willing to lower the hammer on overt hostility or insult), and commenters who are committed to explaining and considering, rather than Setting People Straight.<br /><br />Note that most of those exchanges, and most of those environments, feature dialogue between believers and unbelievers as a side-topic, something to be addressed in the context of The Topic at Hand (be it social justice, researching a false claim, or whatever). John Scalzi, over at Whatever (http://whatever.scalzi.com/) provides a similar environment, where Science Fiction is the main focus. Michael Mockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06233321050691782148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4446682073857250843.post-81664501811157482982014-05-04T16:57:00.454-05:002014-05-04T16:57:00.454-05:00Hi Michael,
You and I talked briefly over at Yea...Hi Michael, <br /><br />You and I talked briefly over at Year Without God (I was lamenting not knowing what would be helpful in convo with a friend who deconverted), but I recently read more of your posts here and thought I'd take up the conversation again, if I may.<br /><br />Have you found places, virtual or in RL, where the conversation between believers and everyone else is facilitated well? Some sort of "training camp," as it were, so respectful dialogue can be modeled and practiced? I've been seeking to facilitate dialogue locally and want to learn from others who have been at this longer than I have.Angelahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17974895195130406729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4446682073857250843.post-41928899424010732912011-03-29T08:12:35.676-05:002011-03-29T08:12:35.676-05:00Excellent! Rather than tying up the comments here,...Excellent! Rather than tying up the comments here, I've created a whole new post where we can talk about this: <a href="http://nagamakironin.blogspot.com/2011/03/friendly-evangelism-basis-of-faith.html" rel="nofollow">the Basis of Faith</a>.Michael Mockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06233321050691782148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4446682073857250843.post-83141688525404617042011-03-28T18:07:18.339-05:002011-03-28T18:07:18.339-05:00Hi, Michael,
I've tried to find the post wher...Hi, Michael,<br /><br />I've tried to find the post where you had mentioned your struggles with the concept of God as trinity, and the atonement of Christ. But, unfortunately I couldn't locate it, sooo, I thought I would leave some brief comments here.<br /><br />I began to question and struggle with my faith when I was about nine or ten years old. And, for a time as a young person was agnostic.<br /><br />It seems to me that it is healthier for kids to be reared in church environments where it's ok to do this, and even encouraged, rather than to be made to feel guilty for being naturally inquisitive. <br /><br />Any faith that emerges in the long run is bound to be more grounded. I think it's when doubts and questions are continually pushed down that the bottom is most likely to drop out spiritually.<br /><br />I'm thinking that any analogy we try to paint to describe the work of the cross of Christ is bound to fall short of the thing itself.<br /><br /> How can our finite human minds fully comprehend all the precise mechanics of how God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself? Do we even have to know exactly?<br /><br /> What I believe as a Christian is that by the dying and rising again of Jesus Christ we are ultimately put right with God, and with each other.<br /><br />God loved us so much that He fully entered into human life and suffering so that we could share in His life forever. <br /><br /> I suppose I would be more partial to the Greek Orthodox view of the atonement which is different than the view of Anslem which tends to predominate more in Western theology. <br /><br />Becky.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4446682073857250843.post-53325512778235814422011-03-25T13:31:25.757-05:002011-03-25T13:31:25.757-05:00Geds said:
I think my would-be evangelists in many...Geds said:<br /><i>I think my would-be evangelists in many cases were scared of actually listening to me. It was literally a case of, "If he could leave he can probably convince me to leave, too, and I don't want that."</i><br /><br />I think you're right. Many would-be evangelists want to believe so badly that they're afraid to entertain the questions. I can say that from first-hand experience. I thought if I entertained my doubts that was tantamount to treason. Other Christians are afraid to entertain the doubts and questions because it threatens their faith as well.Ruthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17313118060838041133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4446682073857250843.post-67088754520274948222011-03-25T12:56:44.395-05:002011-03-25T12:56:44.395-05:00Ah, excellent. Glad to have you here.
Just as a ...Ah, excellent. Glad to have you here. <br /><br />Just as a test, I'm responding via (pretty vanilla) Firefox, but offhand it looks like it'll go through. I'm betting you're right: probably some bit of security is securing you out of the comment form.Michael Mockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06233321050691782148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4446682073857250843.post-73580523756165777522011-03-25T12:29:15.825-05:002011-03-25T12:29:15.825-05:00This is exrelayman. I like what I have seen here s...This is exrelayman. I like what I have seen here so far. It was necessary for me to switch over from Firefox to IE in order to be able to comment (I use multiple virus, tracker, ad, and maleware defenses with Firefox and one of them may be the problem). You and others commenting at Bruce's blog has been the means of my finding you.<br /><br />I am a de-convert from Christianity. It captured me in my youth, and I escaped from it pretty young also - way before there was an internet. But remnants of the mental conditioning apparently persist to the extent that I am fascinated by the reasonings of others who find belief untenable. <br /><br />I am anticipating many good visits here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4446682073857250843.post-39966992121009473382011-03-24T12:05:46.096-05:002011-03-24T12:05:46.096-05:00This isn't always easy. It requires listening ...<i>This isn't always easy. It requires listening more than talking. If you're generally used to talking to other Christians, and particularly used to talking about Christianity to other Christians, then it's also going to require cautious, thoughtful consideration of your words and phrases. Doing this means interacting with some views and beliefs that you disagree with, and some that you may find simply inconceivable.</i><br /><br />This, I think, is the hardest thing for the would-be evangelist to wrap their mind around, especially if they knew the former Christian in that previous life.<br /><br />One of the issues I'm sure people had in dealing with me is that I was regarded within my peer group as being the wise, thoughtful one. I was that "man of god" to whom many looked up. I actually had some people say to me, "If you couldn't do it, what hope is there for me?" and a few others that went more along the lines of, "Did you think of what this would do to the people you used to teach and lead?"<br /><br />I think my would-be evangelists in many cases were scared of actually listening to me. It was literally a case of, "If he could leave he can probably convince me to leave, too, and I don't want that." My interactions with them vs. the few drive-by evangelists I ran in to were wildly different.<br /><br />Even so, I think that's always an existential fear in Christianity. If you're not doubting on some level it means you're not paying attention or thinking too hard about it. If you're not thinking too hard about it you're probably not trying to evangelize (in my experience...). So the very existence of the former believer who is happy and well adjusted is a frightening thing to contemplate. It's much easier to not actually understand who they are or why they're thinking that way.Gedshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15047239425466517786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4446682073857250843.post-8867279643469330342011-03-24T11:51:32.640-05:002011-03-24T11:51:32.640-05:00and by the band Covenant, whom I certainly have ne...<i>and by the band Covenant, whom I certainly have never met in person</i><br /><br />I went to college with a guy who was in a band with his brother and a couple of his friends. The called the band Covenant. I suggested to my friend that they'd probably want to re-think that at some point if they ever intended to make it.<br /><br />True story...Gedshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15047239425466517786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4446682073857250843.post-65299473070682290862011-03-23T10:37:04.860-05:002011-03-23T10:37:04.860-05:00Wow. Glad you guys liked it.
Becky, you're w...Wow. Glad you guys liked it. <br /><br />Becky, you're welcome to come back and talk more about that; probably the easiest way is to leave a comment when you're ready, and I'll set up a post for the discussion.Michael Mockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06233321050691782148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4446682073857250843.post-42520298966232028242011-03-23T08:51:40.628-05:002011-03-23T08:51:40.628-05:00Thanks from me, too, Michael.
And, I think the qu...Thanks from me, too, Michael.<br /><br />And, I think the quote from Anne Lamont was right on.<br /><br />Also, Michael, I would like to come back, and talk with you relating to your post concerning the trinity, and the atonement of Christ when I have more time to talk, if that's ok.<br /><br />I can very much relate to what you've shared in this. I was probably about nine or ten when I started to question, and challenge my Sunday school teachers relating to these doctrines of the faith. <br /><br />Becky.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4446682073857250843.post-29979240331514124302011-03-23T08:23:58.133-05:002011-03-23T08:23:58.133-05:00This was a well thought-out, well presented series...This was a well thought-out, well presented series. I thought you were spot on. Thanks for addressing it in a non-hostile, rational, thoughtful manner.Ruthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17313118060838041133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4446682073857250843.post-6959435923711174542011-03-23T05:58:48.657-05:002011-03-23T05:58:48.657-05:00Thanks for that series. I think you really nailed ...Thanks for that series. I think you really nailed some of the problems with evangelism, especially when it comes to certain evangelistic forms of Christianity. <br /><br />I've learned a long time ago that everybody that is living here, on this planet, no matter their job or position are, in fact, human and totally fallible. EVERYONE including the priests, police and other authority figures. They're all human, they all make mistakes and there are some bad players out there. <br /><br />I remember when getting ready for our wedding sitting in a private meeting between us and our priest. He was talking about something and used a (mild) swear word, immediately caught himself and corrected himself. We all laughed. It showed me he's a human being just like the rest of us. <br /><br />Yes-- it's definitely a sad state of affairs that clergy being human can also do some rather unsavory things (in the case you cited, embezzling the Church's funds) but that's the world we live in. Of course, when a story gets out like this people are understandably disillusioned by the experience. Some will seek other churches, some will seek an escape from hypocrisy. I have stated often enough that people should not inflict their belief system upon someone else. Period. In general attempting to change someone's beliefs is an exercise in futility. People change, true, but people don't change that much. <br /><br />It is my hope (and prayer) that this series of essays will be read, understood, and taken to heart by those who wish to evangelize and that they learn from it that they will not change someone's deeply rooted beliefs by simply talking at them about the benefits of their belief system against the disadvantages of their target's belief (or lack of a) system. <br /><br />Its quite simple really: Respect others, do to them what you wish to be done to you. A Christian certainly wouldn't want an atheist to accost them with invective on why their faith is completely wrong. So why would a deconvert, agnostic, athiest, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, etc... want Christians to tell them their beliefs are wrong and theirs (the Christians') are right? They wouldn't, they're already set in their beliefs and don't want to change. <br /><br />Anyway, I've said more than enough. :)Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16716605205592469438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4446682073857250843.post-40622984096109696832011-03-23T00:37:15.435-05:002011-03-23T00:37:15.435-05:00Geds observations pretty well describes how I feel...Geds observations pretty well describes how I feel about the matter.Every month or so I get a letter or email from someone in my past who starts out by saying hi and then 3 pages of invectives, bible verses, etc. Such letters are a waste of time, fodder for my blog, and a reminder of the things I left behind.<br /><br />Truth is most Christians are incapable of loving a person as they are. They practice a religion that says everyone is a sinner in need of a savior. How can they In good conscience leave us as we are?<br /><br />They should remember they are not going to tell us anything we have not heard already. Seriously, what are they going to say that hasn't been said before ? There are no verses to share we haven't read. <br /><br />I have 2 friends left who are Christians. (not counting cyber friends) we get along great. Why? We talk about the 90% of life that isn't about religion. I never mention my godlessness and they don't mention their godliness. We have been friends for 43 years. Yes, they fear I am going to hell. They pray for me. I wouldn't want them to do otherwise. I was their pastor. They know I know...<br /><br />BruceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com